The psychology and communication fundamentals for influencing internal stakeholders.

What you will learn:

The three factors in influencing stakeholders:

• Preparation

• Tactics

• Communication skills

About the Educator:

Transcript: (AI generated)

Influencing Stakeholders final

Hello and welcome to today's webinar. Today's webinar is all about influencing stakeholders, and I have a wonderful guest with me today, which is Ellia Harris. Ellia tell us a little bit about yourself and. Who 

you are? 

I'm Ellia Harris, chief Innovation Officer at the Potential Center. I help entrepreneurs and managers build a productive team and a culture of innovation that contributes to a faster rate of achieving their success.

At the potential center, we do leadership training and coaching. Leadership development oftentimes for new managers because they get so little. Support is done through our flagship course called Light Bulb Moments, which is a self-paced podcast style course with an accompanying workbook. . I also do one-to-one coaching to help managers figure out what their priorities are, and these are managers at all levels.

I also help them facilitate their team's creative problem solving and help them become more effective leaders. And I provide training for leadership teams and teams and how to solve problems collaboratively with creativity using light bulb. Think. 

Great. 

So let's get straight away into the webinar and share the slides.

Okay. 

Let me share my screen and how does that look? Kens looks. 

Looks perfect. 

Okay, great. Well welcome everybody to influencing internal stakeholders. In this lesson, you'll be learning more about the psychological and the communication fundamentals of influencing that can be used to achieve a successful outcome with internal stakeholders.

There are three factors in influencing stakeholders and that forms the agenda of this session. Preparation tactics and communication skills. Stakeholders are important because they can have a positive or negative influence on the project with their decisions. So who is a stake? A stakeholder is an individual, a group, or an organization that's impacted by the outcome of a project or a business.

Venture stakeholders have an interest in the success of the project, and they can be within or outside the organization that's sponsoring the project, and there are also critical or key stakeholders. Without their support, the project cannot exist. So Jens before we actually dive into the discussion a bit more, what could be some typical stakeholders in a business who might they be?

From my perspective, of course, it can be stakeholders as just your team members, but then if you work in large organizations, you must have properly have, the management can be a stakeholder and external parties can. Stakeholders, but most of the time, at least in the environment I work, there are a lot of stakeholders within the large organizations where you have different departments in different parts of the business, which are key stakeholders for you to succeed.

Yeah. Do you ever find that HR is a stakeholder? 

Yeah, huge one. definitely. Especially in what 

sense? Because HR is different in every organization, isn't it? 

Yeah. So in a lot of organization, they work across everyone, like across the whole organization. So they're a good binding piece of the organization, and you have the possibility to engage with them in different ways and get as well, either knowledge, help when it comes to leadership, education help when it comes to personal coaching and of.

Different HR related processes in an organiz. 

Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thanks. And you mentioned external stakeholders. A few that I can think of are external consultants and vendors, and these could be anything from your technical consultants to designers and copywriters. It could even be policymakers depending on the scope of the project that you're looking at.

And maybe. Industry associations. If there's something about the project that might be complimentary to what they're doing, they can help promote things. And when might managers want to influence internal stakeholders? Jens 

I think that's on a daily basis. sensing sometimes is seen as a negative word, but I think it's also influencing in a positive.

Whereas like if you motivate a team member, if you motivate a team, if you try to sell internal projects to other stakeholders inside of the organization, it's a key part. . 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's also important if you need to borrow staff from other departments for a while. You know, if, if somebody outside your room team has a specific skill and you, you really would like to have them on the, the team.

Team that you're going to be influencing another manager. And also if there's a new process coming on board within the organization, like a new software system, then you're going to need buy-in from the the other stakeholders to make sure that implementing that new system goes smoothly. Great. Well, let's move.

The most important factors in successfully influencing internal stakeholders are preparation the tactics that you'll use to influence stakeholders and the communication skills that will help you influence stakeholders. So let's look at preparation first, and like with any project, part of the success in influencing stakeholders is in the planning and the preparation.

Your overall goal is to make it easy for stakeholders to say yes, so that there are a number of things to consider in this stage. First of all, think about how much change the organization has gone through lately. Is this even a good time to suggest something new? Who specifically do you want to persuade?

It could be your supervisor, senior leaders, or other stakeholders. And why do you want to influence these individuals? Do you wanna get a share of the budget? Who doesn't? Or do you want them to sponsor the project? For example, what do you know about their likes and their dislikes, even down to the football team that they support?

What failures have they had and can your proposal help them avoid more failures? Because we all want to avoid pain. Who are the potential naysayers? Will you aim to get their buy-in in advance? What are the benefits of what you're proposing? Who could you test the idea out on and gain honest feedback from before presenting it to stakeholders?

It could be a mentor or a trusted peer, and you're not practicing your presentation at this point. You're just checking to see how the idea might be received. Successful ideas are often adopted over time. So could you briefly outline the overall concept and then provide more detail on just the first stage Information about the competition and trends in the industry can sometimes be helpful.

So you might wanna gather those. Anticipate the challenges, the questions, the objections that you might get, and be prepared with information, counter-arguments and suggestions for further discussion. And who could you practice the delivery of your presentation on? And this could be your manager or a colleague with leadership experience, for example, a mentor or a.

So Yenz, I'm gonna stop my share for a minute because I wanna just have a quick discussion at this point on things that came up in the preparation stage, did any of those points resonate with you? 

Yeah, I can say all of them resonate because for me is, uh, uh, key, essential part is understanding who you work with and getting deeper, like you said, understanding their needs, understanding what their problems.

if you understand it deeply, if you understand their language, how do they talk? Do they talk differently than you talk? Do they have specific terms in the organization? For example, if you work with finance, they have specific terms. If you use them, then they feel more closer to you just by using this term.

I think that these are key points every leader should look into, and then as well use them to influence and connect with the stakeholders. 

Yeah, that's a really good point about understanding what their language is, what their key terms are. You're building rapport in this stage, and one of the essential parts of building rapport is that we work.

Well with people that we like. So by showing that we have the same interests or that we understand what their key points or what their concerns are, then we're showing that we're listening to them. That, you know, we're taking on board what their concerns are and we're trying to, to meet them where they're at.

So yes, all of this is, is also about building. . Yeah. Is there anything in this stage that you think people watching might want to hear more about? I 

think a key part, which you just mentioned is the listening, because sometimes it's as easy as spending a little bit time with someone, with one of your stakeholders and just asking them simple questions.

How are you doing? Yeah. What's going on? What is bothering you in the moment most, and just. investing, let's say 15 minutes in front of a huge projects or as part of a huge project, by just listening to what their problems are. And it might be related to the project or not at all, maybe like mm-hmm , their doc is sick, whatever it is.

But that's in their mind, just by listening to them, like you said, you built this rap rapport, you get closer to the other person, and that's sometimes overlooked because it's so simple. . Yeah. Yeah. 

And I'll be talking more about that in the next stage of tactics and in the last stage in the communication skills.

But it's good to sign post It because those kinds of things are so important to keep in the back of our mind throughout an entire project. So let's go back to the presentation. So once you have done your preparation, it's time to focus on your tactics and there are three tactics that are part of your campaign to influence stakeholders making the case, which includes explaining the benefits involving stakeholders and compromise.

So let's look at these in. The first tactic is to make the case, so provide the context for the concept. When you ask for approval without providing context, the brain senses that it's missing information. So the safest thing for it to do is to say no. So tell the story of how the idea came about, what you anticipate the idea will accomplish, and give a few examples of what that might look like for different user.

Now, this is where you actually present the benefits, so demonstrate as vividly as possible how the idea could potentially benefit the organization, the customers, and of course the stakeholders that you're hoping to persuade. Strive to answer the question, what's in it for me? For each of the decision makers or stakeholder groups, for example, how would the idea save the organization money or time?

Would it make an internal process faster or easier? How would the idea contribute to gaining a greater share of the market? You may find it useful to make the case for stakeholders individually in order to learn what's important to them. This could help identify valuable benefits and also apply to other stakeholders.

Keep it simple. Start with an overview. People welcome seeing the big picture before the technical details where possible use data or establish evidence to back up the concept. Use the data to help tell the story about the need and the potential impact, but don't rely too heavily on the data showing how the idea would be applied should be a compelling story on its.

The second tactic in influencing stakeholders is to involve them. People will support that which they put energy into and help create. They'll feel invested and be more likely to support your idea. So you can involve people by asking for their opinion or their feedback, either on the whole. Or on a specific aspect of it, if you already have a well-developed idea, let them know how they can contribute to the final version.

When you use that input to further refine the idea, they will feel valued. Always thank them no matter how small their contribution and tell them you appreciate their. A deeper way to involve people is to bring them into the project as collaborators at an early stage or propose a specific area where they can have a say in tweaking the concept even further, be sure to publicly acknowledge how stakeholders contribute to the project because people love to be recognized.

And involving others can also mean identifying your allies at an early stage and getting them on board to help persuade other stakeholders. The last tactic is to compromise. Being able to compromise is a strength, not a weakness in getting to. By being open to suggestions from stakeholders, you're modeling collaboration, and this will encourage them to act collaboratively as well.

Know what you will settle for. Where could you compromise without GE jeopardizing the concept? For example, could you train one team to pilot a prototype instead of doing a full rollout? If stakeholders offer a counter proposal, what are you willing to accept? Would you be able to come back with a revised pitch?

So again, let's pause here and have a conversation on tactics. So what jumped out at you about that section? 

I took notes. It's very interesting for me. I think it's without the preparation. This is very weak. So the first step you explained is essential to be able to do things well. What I liked and what stood out was.

how do you think about the benefits for everyone? This win-win thinking for all people or all parties involved in this is something that's often forgotten inside of the business world because it's only about me and I want to get this through the. Discussion, Rhonda, whatever you are pitching or discussing in, in a board meeting or even just in a project meeting, which like, but my idea is better than your ideas.

So this win-win thing king with the preparation, I think is key. Part of that, it's 

human nature that we think of ourselves first, and that's down to the reptilian. , you know, we have to protect ourselves. One way of protecting ourselves is looking after our own interests. So the more that you as an influencer, or trying to influence and persuade your stakeholders, the more that you can put yourself in the shoes of the people that you are training this message on, the better you'll be able to recognize when.

Something that you plan to say might come across as something that's an attack? Completely unintentional. Yeah. But from their point of view it's like, oh hell dare they, you know, say this about me. You know, we've worked really hard to get to this point. Don't they understand? Well, of course we don't understand cuz we're on the outside.

So softening your language sometimes if you have ever experie. dot dot or something that could happen is dot, dot, dot. So you're not saying hand on heart, this is what you're experiencing because you can't get into everybody's mind, or this is what you know will likely happen because every situation is different.

So the more that we can think about, You know how it's going to be perceived by focusing outwards. You know, if you can put that as a phrase in your mind, focus outwards, focus outwards, then that will take you a long way in influencing. 

Yeah. One thing that helped me always, which is linking that to the preparation stage, but as well what you said is meet people in private.

If you know already their objections, what you're presenting before, then you can either. Present them in a way that you're taking the objections in a positive way and explain that, or you use that to build this raw rapport that you get close to each other. And then in the end with that, it's fairly easy to have a conversation in a more private setting, but as well then in a wider group where you can ask someone a question, Hey, what do you think about that?

But you know the answer already because you have asked them before. 

Yes. And also, you know, remember the, the other thing that I was saying about that is that when you're speaking to somebody privately, They might actually unlock another benefit that you hadn't realized, or another stumbling block that you have to address in your presentation that's going to apply to other managers as well.

So, you know, th this is also information gathering. 

Yeah, definitely. Another thing. I like very much and I think that's, that can't be as enough is the recognition of team members and German. We are saying, if you do this, they will eat out of your hand. . Yes, it definitely is a superpower. 

Yeah. We all love to be recognized.

Introvert, extrover. It doesn't matter. You know that that's something that Maslow's Pyramid, as you go out the pyramid and you're looking for a validation rather than security, that's where the validation comes in. So even if you are just involving somebody on. 10% of the project, but their involvement is, is going to make that 10% stronger and help link the rest of it together, then that could be something that, that makes or breaks your, your idea, your prototype.

So even if they're not a regular member of your team, if they are a stakeholder elsewhere in the organization, find some way of getting them involved. Yeah. Anything else you wanna mention? 

I'm just looking at my notes. Yeah, I think it's a, as a key part, what you said is as well, modeling the collaboration part, whereas how do you work with each o other, how do you truly building it back to the win-win?

How do you truly do that and not just talking about it. I think that's, that's a key part, important. When you look into. , whereas how does that play out afterwards? So yes, you can win in one meeting, but what does it mean for the relationship? What does it mean for the project going on for other things that you do in inside of the organization?

So looking already ahead is a key part of finding the right balance between do you push yourself to the end or do you take a win-win approach where you say, okay, let's settle with the middle. To find out what is the right thing. So really doing that strategically goes back again to the preparation phase, which is super, I.

Yeah, 

and I think that there's a way of marrying the two together on a regular basis. And I'm sure you talk about this in your training and we don't have time to delve into it here, but anybody can be a leader at any level. In an organization, a new manager, or even just a member of a team who wants to push things forward can find ways of modeling the skills that they want to see in other people of being open to questioning and hearing new ideas.

So encouraging people to be leaders at any level are really gonna bring both of those parts together. Jens what is the most important skill an influencer can have? 

It's definitely communication. 

Absolutely. Here are some communication tactics that can increase your rate of success in influencing stakeholders.

They fall into three categories. The first is language and dialogue. The second is emotional intelligence, body language, and voice. And the third category is the presentation. First, some tips on using language and dialogue in influencing people. Don't like a sales pitch. Instead of delivering a monologue, which can sound like a sales pitch, find ways to weave two-way discussions into your presentation or meeting.

You can involve people by checking if they want clarification on anything, by listening to any counter-proposals that they have, or by being prepared with a list of questions that are designed to open a discuss. Persuade ethically, you won't be trusted if you try to manipulate others, for example, by saying things like, Hey, everyone else is doing it, and we'll get left behind if we don't do it.

That's not a good tactic. You can explore whether people are willing to be open-minded and think different by asking, would you be willing to hear something that may challenge certain assumptions that we've. Think about the language you use too, for example. What's the difference between these two questions?

Here's our idea. What do you think of it? And here's our idea. What would you do to strengthen it? The first one, here's our idea. What do you think of it invites a no response. At this point, your audience won't have all the information. Remember, if the brain doesn't have enough information, no is the default answer.

The second question, here's our idea, what would you do to strengthen? It invites a positive response and it encourages the brain to try and solve a puzzle. And the brain loves solving puzzles. When you find an idea past someone and they have a negative first impression, ask questions like, could you tell me about your thinking behind that?

And this may move them to reflect on their initial response and think of some alternatives. If someone has significant concerns, again, it may be helpful to meet with them individually, to hear and respond to those concerns in particular, and see things from their perspective and explore how the concept might negatively or even positively impact their department or customer.

And as I said earlier, welcome this opportunity because hearing their arguments against your idea could help you build a more robust case overall. Here are some tactics for using emotional intelligence, body language, and your voice. When influencing and negotiating, use all of your emotional intelligence skills such as active listening, patience, and respect for their position, acknowledge their point of view, their questions and their concerns.

Make eye contact. And believe it or not, this is also important in a virtual call. So make eye contact with the little green. Use open body stances to display a collaborative intention. You can even do this on a video call by showing your hands palms up in front of you, and by smiling and use an appropriate tone of voice.

For example, a neutral even tone when you're presenting data or expressing excitement or empathy when you're telling a story. And here are some tactics for a successful presentation. Think about whether there's information you could share in advance of the meeting. If people have the opportunity to review the essential information, you're likely to get better quality insights and questions from them.

Keep the presentation brief. It goes a long way to show that you respect their. Give people time to react as you are presenting. Be comfortable with silence as they think about what they're hearing. In fact, you can use silence to your advantage. It allows them to mentally hear important points a second time.

That little gap that I left you gives the brain a chance to listen to its tape recorder and rehear what I just said before that pause. Be honest about not knowing answers, rather than responding with something that may not be correct. Let them know that you'll research the question and get back. And no one wants to feel pressured to go along with something that they haven't had time to fully consider.

So don't make an aggressive pitch. Give them time to consider the proposal and offer to C Circle back in a few days, for example, to take any questions that they may have. So, Jens I'm going to stop the share again so that we can pick this section apart. And what are your initial thoughts? Comments, questions?

Yeah. Now number one is you can do the first two steps, which is preparation and tactics and can still fail quite a lot if you don't communicate properly. . So that, that's the first reaction I have. If we take this three topics, the middle one, the EQ and the body language specifically, if we take physical meetings, it's a game changer if you know how to use your tone of voice.

get excitement or get people understanding what you're saying, using this pausing effects, but as well your body language, how you walk into a room, how do you lead the room with what you are doing If you are trained in doing that, and if you're confident with yourself, which is a lot about that, if you're confident, then it's a game changer.

It is indeed, and there is so much that can be learned around this one particular aspect of body language. There's a lot of work that's been done over the last 50 years in terms of just simple things like if we mirror. Or somebody else's body language. Not like your monkey see, monkey do, but you know, just gently mirroring.

Then that also helps to create rapport because the other person unconsciously interprets this as, oh, this person's just like me. . 

Yeah. Yeah. It's a big one. I, I read one, one of the few books I. And that must be 20 years ago on body language was as well talking about a lot of things like that, that you can, with very, very simple things, you can achieve a lot if you know what you do.

What, what if you just think about consciously of how do you act right now? Do you, do you, do you, let's just stepping into the room, there was a good example, someone giving different examples and then different pictures in the book. I still remember it Vivid. . And then what was the question? So, who is the most comforta com Comfortable person, confident person, not comfortable.

Mm-hmm. . And then you, you directly picked the, the, the person that they, of course set out to be the most co confident person. Interesting. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. 

Yeah. What else did you pick up that you wanted to mention? 

When it comes to, I just want to pick one out, which is interesting, this, this negative first impression topic.

Sometimes we, we think we got the first negative impression because someone is not listening. Even worse in today's world where people are watching at their phone, they're not listening. from your perspective. They're not listening, but maybe they're just taking notes. So I've had it a couple of times where one part was you having a, a negative impression about the person, but as well the other way around and it, when you do a presentation, I think it's very, very important that you're.

y, that you're not getting pushed back by that, that it's more about, okay, that's maybe just my feeling right now, but because you're presenting, you don't have the possibility except you stop presenting and then asking them. But sometimes just because someone is looking in, in your way, in a negative way doesn't mean that they're feeling negative.

That's maybe just they're thinking about something deeply. So really, let's. Let yourself not throw, throw out of your, your context and what you're doing just because there's the first negative impression from your side or the other side. 

Yeah, that's a really good point. Thinking about how , just thinking about, you know, if I'm a.

Looking at this person's face, what is that telling me? Are they concentrating on what I'm saying? If their eyes are closed, are they really, really listening carefully or are they falling asleep? You know, there, there are lots of interpretations of that. What you said, Yenz actually made me think, you know, there are even very subtle ways that you can put people at ease in a meeting where you're presenting by first saying to.

I know I'm going to be throwing some new information at you, so please feel comfortable about doing what will help to take this information in. You know, if you wanna make notes, great. If you wanna look something up on the internet as a way of supporting what I'm talking about, you know, giving them permission to do what they need to do.

Check some information online if you need to. Ask questions, if you need to. Whatever I can do to help you feel comfortable or. You know, feel free to just take the information in in your own way. I'm being long-winded about it cuz I've only just thought about it. But do you get the idea of what I'm saying?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That goes as well with being honest if you don't have the answer in today's world, mm-hmm. , it's not always, even if you're presenting something you're deeply involved in, sometimes you don't have the answer and someone is asking you a question, it's fine to say, I have no idea. , it's, it's most of the time in my experience, even better to say, I have no idea than just making an answer up.

Yeah, 

absolutely. People will respect you more than if you try and flub an answer and it's, it's worth taking the extra time to do that. Yeah, agree. Yeah. Any other comments? Any questions that you think listeners might have? I think 

these are the. Important ones, which I have had here on, on my list. Again, going back to the language, it, it, I think it's the part is weaving all together is the key point.

Prepare yourself properly and linking these things together. . 

Yeah. Actually, you reminded me of something I wanted to say earlier, that when you combine those three things, preparation, tactics, and communication, they're like three legs of a stool. You know? All three is solid. Like you were saying earlier, Jens that if you just do the preparation and the tactics, it falls over.

So think of this as a three-legged. . Yeah. Okay. Let me go back to sharing the screen. So , what did you learn if I did my job well? You learned about the psychological and communication fundamentals for influencing internal stakeholders. Specifically, I talked about the three factors for successfully influencing in relation to internal stakeholders, preparation tactics, and communication skills.

Within preparation, you gained guidance on things to consider when planning the delivery of your proposal, such as timing, who you want to persuade and why, and being clear on the benefits within tactic. You picked up additional tips for making the case involving stakeholders along the way and the art of compromising.

And finally, we took a deep dive into communication skills, touching on verbal and body language, emotional intelligence, and those specifically related to making present. And I have a little challenge for you. We learn by doing. So what is one thing that you will do next week as a result of attending this presentation and put it on your calendar?

So that's the end of my presentation and I think we have time for some additional conversation. Let me stop the share. And one of the things I was curious about was any instances that we can share of a time that we. And or were not successful when trying to influence stakeholders. So Jens would you be willing to share an instance when you were either successful or not successful?

I have to share not successful . Okay. Because we, we learn most of the time, at least in my eyes, I learned more when I didn't succeed . So an obvious thing depending on what you do as a leader and, and, and where you are from, from your career perspective. I still remember vividly, specifically finance discussion when we talked about a lot of money when we looked into.

Let's prepare the budgeting process and you really go deeply into how do you set your team up and the department up and the part of the organization up for success. And then you go into the finance discussions. And my case, at least, it was a couple of time like that where the finance colleagues haven't been interested in what we were doing.

It was just, yeah, you, you get this compared to last year. And that's it. I was just going into the conversation naively to say, of course they follow my lead because I'm the expert. I know what I'm talking about, and they have zero idea. And I was not taking their position to understand, okay, they have pressure inside an organization.

They need to deliver towards their target. They're in, in very large organization. They're just getting the target from above. So they're just trying to, how do we navigate all the different budgets of the total company? Where my part, let's say my piece of the bigger cake was very small and they just, I wasn't prepared enough.

I wasn't curious enough to understand their position, and then as well, I was trying to force it, which then obviously made them react in a way that they're pushing back. . 

Yeah. What do you think you could have done differently to get a different outcome? 

Yeah, I think one, one part is the preparation phase.

Going deeper into things and not just preparing my perspective, preparing the other perspective, and having this one-on-one conversations you said. So that's something I've had the blessing of having a very, very good. and he was master in this. He was going into, I mean, he was working at an executive level.

He was going into executive board discussions. and he was organizing and orchestrating it in a way that the decision was taken before the board meeting because he was knowing already all the stakeholders. He went, he went for dinner with them the day before, a week before, had a coffee chat with them here and there, and basically everything was laid out and it was just a nodding inside of the board meeting.

But it's, it takes a lot of skill to, to be able to do. 

Absolutely. Yeah. Lots of experience, I'm sure for him to get to that point. Yeah. I'm going to share a positive story because , quite frankly, I was really surprised that we got a yes from it, but we did so. I was actually in an interim director at the large national nonprofit, and we had gone through a reorganization, which is why I was in the interim director on the the corporate fundraising side.

Getting money from companies and, and associations and things, and the team came up with a brilliant idea for an event. It was a weekend event that would serve as a team building exercise for company clients. They put a great plan together. They presented it well so that the, the committee and the the senior management team, Got a really good sense of what this event could be like and what the benefits were for both the the corporate clients and the organization.

And they had a rough budget outlined, and they were very clear on where they needed. People elsewhere in the organization for providing information or for filming, and it, they, they just won everybody over it. They got approval for the project. It went so well. They got really good local media coverage as well.

So that, that was a really fantastic example of how coming in , like, you know, nobody knows who you are. and you are coming in with this team with an idea that nobody's ever done before and they got it right first 

time. Yeah. That's awesome. It's always, always great to see their successes and celebrate them as well.

Yeah. It's so important. 

Yeah. Well, thank you Jens for having me on. It's been great to have this opportunity to share. Ways of helping managers, entrepreneurs influence stakeholders, mainly internal stakeholders. But you know, these, these concepts work just as well with external stakeholders as well. So if people want to get in touch with me and if they have questions on this presentation, then hello@thepotentialcenter.com is a good way to reach me.

Yeah. Now, we'll as well put a link towards you. Insight of succeed into the platform so everyone who sees it will have the link straight away. And of course, everyone is welcome to ask questions. Welcome to put comments under this video. So if you have questions, put the questions as well into the comments.

And if there is a need or a wish for doing a specific q and a on this topic, I'm happy to. Get us back together and, and doing a q and a session in more detail. So if anyone is interested in that, reach out. Thank you very much. Was a fantastic presentation and it's really interesting how we can influence stakeholders.

Great. Thanks Jens. Thanks for having me. 

It's a pleasure.